The Interview: Just Football meets Graeme Le Saux

JF: Graeme Le Saux, thanks very much for speaking to Just Football.

Graeme Le Saux: No problem.

JF: If you wouldn’t mind beginning by telling us a bit about the Champions League Trophy Tour with Heineken and your role as Ambassador.

GLS: Yes, I’ve been working with UEFA on various things over the past few years and I think as a former player you’re always interested in – or I’ve always been interested in – the game, whether it’s coaching or what have you. So working with UEFA on the Champions League Trophy Tour with Heineken from my point of view is very much an opportunity to give people the chance to experience the Champions League on a different level, on a much more personal and interactive level. It’s a good way of putting something back, very much about the community and letting people get closer to what the history of the event is all about.

JF: One of the things that strikes me about the trophy tour is that it’s quite innovative in the different places they go, obviously Asia this time. Is that the sort of thing that interested you about the project?

GLS: I think so. I think from my point of view, referring back to when I was a player, I always found that it was very important as a group of players – whichever team I was in – that you had good relationships with the supporters and that you made the effort. There are times when maybe you’ve lost a game and you’re not feeling great but I think it’s a professional responsibility to make the effort, to make people feel that you appreciate their support and their loyalty.

And I think that the community side of football has always been very important to me from grassroots all the way up to this being elite level. The more tangible that is for people, the more likely they are to enjoy it and the better experience they’re going to have. I think its great they use ambassadors and players to talk about their own experiences of being involved in the Champions League, the history of the competition. As a player I wasn’t really aware of the history of the Champions League and the actual effort and the co-ordination that goes into putting on such an amazing event. For me it was a competition.

And so its all about an education and learning more and this is where I think the tour is really good. People will come away having learnt something and found out a bit more. There’s lots of competitions, chances for people to win tickets for the final, a lot of incentive for people to get involved. And the queues and the interest that this trophy generates is amazing. Because it is iconic, it’s a piece of sculpture. You look at it and you immediately recognise it.

JF: So what are your memories of the Champions League as a player?

GLS: Well I didn’t win it, which is a shame. I’d love to have – obviously we’d all love to win that – but playing in the competition it was always a very special event. Each match, because of the build-up, the focus, the stadiums even – like Stamford Bridge for instance – it looks very different because it’s all run by UEFA so it creates a very special event. And then you’re playing against top, top clubs, so…

JF: Do you think the fact it’s played at night also adds to the occasion?

GLS: Yes I think it does actually. I’ve always enjoyed night matches. The supporters – there’s a different atmosphere between the supporters. The foreign supporters tend to bring a lot of colour and flags and have their own songs that we’re not used to. So the atmosphere is different. You see a lot of Premier League clubs putting flags on their supporters’ seats for Champions League games, so it is a very separate competition in its way.

And then obviously you’re travelling to some amazing places, whether its Barcelona, Milan. Probably the most memorable game for me was against Galatasaray in Turkey – that was a tough environment. We beat them 5-0 and we got stoned onto the pitch and they got stoned off! I don’t mean that in a particularly violent way but they create this cauldron of hate. It’s all put on, all bravado, but because we played so well they sung us off the pitch. They thought we were amazing.

JF: You were renowned for being a very intelligent, reasoned, cosmopolitan sort of player and personality. Did the opportunity to travel to all these amazing European locations and stadiums therefore really resonate with you?

GLS: It did. I mean it’s a double-edged sword, you don’t get a lot of time to really enjoy the environment because obviously you’re preparing for matches. But going to places like Turkey – because it was quite far we were there for a couple of days, we stayed on the Bosphorous – so there’s a cultural aspect of it. Moscow, many other places. I think it’s always good to take a step back sometimes and appreciate where you are.

JF: Does that dawn on you more after your career? Is there a moment you think “wow, I played football in all these amazing places” or are you aware of it while your career is ongoing?

GLS: Yeah I suppose there are times during your career when, certainly from my point of view, I felt that. But in a way, often afterwards you reflect and you think. Again for me I never looked back during my whole career. I was always looking at the next opportunity. So it was only in stopping that I then started to reflect. And like I say I wasn’t fortunate enough to win the Champions League but I was very fortunate to win other competitions.

JF: You’re kind of remembered as a Chelsea player in some quarters, but it would be remiss of us to ignore the Blackburn days as well because that was a very good team…

GLS: Yeah, it was an amazing achievement for what was a very local club. And although obviously the club invested a lot in some of the players particularly, it really upsets me when people talk about that club like we bought the league. We didn’t. We had a great mixture of players, a great blend of players.

A lot of those players were homegrown and didn’t cost a lot of money. But we had the perfect blend within the dressing room. The edginess, the camaraderie, the spirit, the belief. And to snatch the Premier League off Manchester United when it was quite arguably one of their best, if not their best ever team I think was a fantastic achievement.

And the margin – you know, last day of the season…it was so tense. Of course I was in that team, but I’m really glad we won it just from the point of view that I really felt we deserved to win it that year. We got very anxious towards the end and nearly let it slip. But you know over a three year period we finished 4^th, 2^nd and 1^st having got promoted the year before. So it was a hell of a run.

JF: In your latter days at Chelsea you were in the team that was the prelude to the Roman Abramovich era. How did you reflect on that? I mean obviously you didn’t know what was going to happen at Chelsea but how do you interpret the changes?

GLS: I think the biggest frustration I suppose of the whole transition was that we didn’t have the luxury of that infrastructure that the players got very quickly when Roman came in – the training facilities and the professionalism that was behind the scenes. The club had spent a lot of money on players, but it was very much top down. The infrastructure wasn’t there.

We trained at Harlington, which if you’ve ever been there…its just unbelievable – really amateur training facilities. And you think, you’re trying to qualify for the Champions League or win the Premier League with facilities like that. Whilst it’s not the be all and end all it is an important part of the professionalism of the club.

When Roman came in he very quickly changed that and invested a lot of money and I think that’s where the benefits have come in. Obviously they’ve got tremendous players as well, but I think if we’d had that support I think we could have been even more successful than we were. But it’s good to see.

Funnily enough, relating to the Champions League, my last game for Chelsea was against Liverpool and the winners of that game would qualify. It was quite ironic because that was my final game for the club, Gianfranco (Zola)’s final game for the club and I was fortunate enough to get Man of the Match that day so people sometimes say to me that’s why Abramovich chose Chelsea. So I need to ask him that!

He’ll probably say “No, don’t be silly I was going to buy it anyway!” But you never know, there’s always a lot of stories around why he bought Chelsea: was it when he flew over? Was he going to buy Spurs? I’ll have to ask him and see what he says. He probably won’t tell me! (laughs)

JF: Looking at your career, we had a really interesting conversation earlier about the role of the media in football and the challenges as a player. How do you interpret the role of the media in football and do you think it’s changed?

GLS: I think it’s degraded over a period of time, the relationship between players and the press. Obviously now you’ve got so many different elements of media coverage. A lot of clubs do their own internal stuff now; it’s much more controlled and managed. I don’t think it’s good for anyone really. But clearly, I mean when I was playing there were a lot of trust issues between players and journalists and I think it’s a two-way street. It takes both parties to create that relationship.

But I do think that it’s a shame because I like to try and express myself. But if I can’t express myself to someone because I can’t trust them then we’re just wasting everyone’s time. That sometimes makes it hard and makes you very monosyllabic and one-dimensional. But I also understand the pressures that the press are under now you know, with 24-hour news coverage etc.

A lot of print journalists, by the time they’ve written their story for example, it’s already been done and dusted within the past 24 hours. So I can understand the mechanics behind why, but I do think journalists should be giving insights as well and asking questions that get information out of people rather than looking for a headline.

JF: That’s what we try and do with our interviews on Just Football…hopefully we achieve it!

GLS: (laughs)

JF: I mean in light of the Keys/Gray sexism row and obviously the various taboos that it touched on within football, how do you interpret that dressing room ‘banter’ element?

GLS: It is a really difficult one because clearly there’s stuff that goes on in certain environments. Even when you go out with your mates you talk about things you wouldn’t talk about with your wives and girlfriends. You have a laugh about things. And within the dressing room there’s a lot of that because you’re together so much. There’s a lot of knocking, a lot of jokes – and you’ve got to have thick skin.

Now, my point is when does a joke become abuse or become prejudice? If we talk about for example race issues. When I was a young player there was a still a huge amount of racism within the game. And I think it’s not only up to individuals to take responsibility. I remember standing up for black players myself because it was never acceptable to me. So it’s a very complicated debate.

But clearly if you’re on an open microphone in a studio, there’s always going to be a lot of people listening and therefore many more people that you don’t know who rightly take offence to those things. But then I do think you have to be careful about how far you take that. If I make a joke – for example were you there when I made that joke with Marcel (Desailly)?

JF: No.

GLS: I said it’s not going to look great…they basically said to Marcel to wheel the trolley and I said well to be fair if Marcel is carrying the trolley and I’m walking behind him it doesn’t look great I don’t think, if we look back in time! Do you know what I mean though? That’s a joke, but there were a couple of people who kind of laughed awkwardly at it.

*conversation interrupted while Le Saux takes a phone call*

GLS: I think it’s an integral part of the dressing room and it’s sort of necessary that you can have a laugh with each other. When things are going well obviously the banter is always there. When things aren’t going so well you need it as well to create and maintain the atmosphere. There’s definitely a line at which that is crossed.

But then I think in certain circumstances people are very quick to jump on the bandwagon and if somebody says something that might offend one person marginally, it still gets reported. That’s a shame because our culture is built on humour and part of what challenges people is humour.

Many, many comedians talk in ways that you wouldn’t dream of talking to someone in a pub, but they’re constantly challenging us to think about how we see things. I’m like that with my own children; certain topics come up, they have a perception and we discuss it. So it’s all part of life. But if you say to people they’re not allowed to have that then it is dangerous because it all goes underground.

Particularly with England and the success that British football had dealing with racism, it’s a great example to the rest of the world and everyone involved – both black players and white players, the authorities and suchlike – should be really proud of what they’ve achieved.

But now I think the differences between people that are being illustrated are maybe more subtle. It’s not so obvious. And actually whether it’s homophobia, racial or cultural abuse those are different challenges. You can’t apply the same rules to how we all dealt with the race issue. It’s a constant battle. Ultimately football is the greatest example of multiculturalism anyway.

JF: Perhaps unwittingly, through your own intelligence and more analytical outlook to, say, the average stereotype of a footballer, you were portrayed as the poster boy for homophobic issues within football, through no fault of your own. Did it get to you?

GLS: Oh definitely. There were times when it really did. In my early years I kind of thought well what am I doing? It’s like bullying. When it sometimes comes from within your own dressing room it makes it very difficult. So I think my career was punctured by moments where I didn’t cope with it very well. I lashed out and got involved in a couple of things that I’m not proud of. But you react sometimes and that’s human nature as well.

When it does happen you have to be big enough to stand up and say ‘I was wrong, I hold my hand up’ and then you move on. But all I’ve wanted, from my point of view as a player was to be judged on my football, but football players are judged on everything now. It’s all exposed.

Over a period of time [the issue of homophobia in football] will change. It won’t change as quickly as I want it to, but hopefully when I’m an old bloke if I live that long I can look back and say what players went through to get to this point was worth it.

JF: You could argue that homophobia in football is one of the last taboos. No player has really been too open aside from Justin Fashanu. Do you think it is still impossible for a player to come out as openly homosexual in English football? And what do you think the reaction would be?

GLS: I mean the sad thing for me is, and I wrote this in my book, it’s sad that if a young gay player came to me and said “Look, I’m gay and I’m going to come out” I would probably advise them not to. But then that goes against my principles of being who you are and being proud of who you are. But yes I would probably say ‘you’re not going to have a moment’s rest.’ And that’s a sad reflection on the sport.

Ultimately any minority requires a sort of critical mass; it needs examples of people coming from different backgrounds to actually then confront the people with the prejudice. For me its not whether there are gay players in football. It’s just that you would hope an environment can be created that if there are gay players, they don’t get put off. So if a gay player wants to be a professional footballer he should have the same opportunities as any other player.

My remit isn’t so much just about homophobia, it’s about prejudice in general. Football is an inclusive sport, it’s played all over the world by all different social classes, all environments and it should be an example to other industries of harmony, not of segregation. But maybe that’s a little bit utopian!

JF: A few shorter questions just to conclude. Who are your favourite left backs in the world currently playing?

GLS: Well Ashley Cole is a tremendous player. (Gael) Clichy and Kieran Gibbs. I like Leighton Baines as well. Maxwell at Barcelona. In every generation you have a batch of standout players. When I was playing Roberto Carlos was the one I always looked at and thought ‘I want to play like him.’

JF: What about when you were growing up?

GLS: John Robertson actually, who played for Nottingham Forest. He was always an unsung hero for me. He was a tremendous player. Then obviously players like Kenny Dalglish and Kevin Keegan – the Liverpool team of the late 1970s and early 80s was phenomenal.

I used to like Forest. West Ham, because they played nice football – my Dad liked West Ham. Southampton. I just had a love for the sport so I would always spend hours in the garden pretending to be someone I’d just seen on TV you know!

JF: If you saw David Batty in the street would you give him a swift uppercut?

GLS: Haha! (laughs). No we get on fine. That moment, once it had happened, it rebalanced the relationship. It was just such a shame it happened when it did. But again going back to what I said earlier, you can’t often choose those times you know? That was probably the most embarrassing thing that has happened to me in football. But I’ve paid my dues for that.

JF: It’s a passionate sport.

GLS: Yes it is and the circumstances were very difficult. It was a tough time. We both cared and we had a few problems leading up to it and unfortunately circumstances contrived to sort of create that outcome.

JF: Finally looking at the Champions League do you think a London club might go on to win it?

GLS: Well clearly Arsenal have a huge task ahead of them [interview conducted before Arsenal were knocked out by Barcelona – Ed]. Tottenham, I like the way they play. I think the fact they’ve got wingers probably unsettles European teams a bit more because quite often European teams are quite narrow. I think Tottenham are quite well set up as a team to do well. Whether they can win it or not – maybe it’s a bit soon.

Then Chelsea, the fact that they’ve still not won it yet – they’ve got to be due to win it sometime soon. So I’m ever hopeful for them.

JF: No London club has ever won the Champions League!

GLS: I know yes. But then you’ve got Manchester United, other top European teams like Barca…that’s the beauty of the competition. You’ve got the elite of European football. It’s very hard to call. I mean I wouldn’t have predicted that Inter and Bayern Munich would get to the final last year.

JF: True. Thanks very much Graeme Le Saux!

GLS: Alright. No problem.

Blackburn Rovers, Champions League, Chelsea, England, English Premier League, Graeme Le Saux, Interviews, Politics and Society, The Media